AA-T/AS-T Degrees Discussion Board

ASCCC wants to answer your questions related to the AA-T/AS-T Degrees. Please post them here. If we don't have the answer, we will work to get an answer for you. Your participation is very important.

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Spanish C-IDs: "package" intermediate level (2nd yr)

C-IDs have been defined for Spanish intermediate courses:  SPAN 200 (4 units) and SPAN 210 (4 units).  At my college, we offer our intermediate courses as a sequence of three courses, each one having 3 units.  When I compare the unit load of the intermediate year in our courses (3+3+3 = 9) to the unit load of SPAN 200 + SPAN 210 (4+4 = 8), we have enough units over the course of the series.  Content is also comparable between the courses for which C-IDs have been created and our 3-course sequence at the intermediate level.  But we cannot establish a course-to-course correspondence.
Question:  Can the ASCCC "package" the intermediate year of Spanish such that we can establish a year-to-year correspondence with the courses in our program?  I know that this has been done for other disciplines, such as Chemistry.  This approach would also benefit colleges which are on a quarter- (instead of semester-) basis. 

Definitely.

We've seen this emerge in disciplines that are not generally viewed as sequenced and it is of no surprise that some language courses might not perfectly align. As the Spanish C-ID descriptors do not exist as sequence, you would have to submit one, two, or three courses for each of the existing descriptors (with there being an expecation that one or two courses would be more likely - it would be odd if your full year were needed for any one descriptor, not matter how misaligned). Let's call your 3 courses A, B, and C. You could submit A and B for SPAN 200 and B and C for SPAN 210 - or whatever combination made sense. Even if your A and B exceeded the SPAN 200, submitting it in this manner would benefit your student should they go somewhere else - and this is ulimately about how we can best serve students.
If you have additional more specific questions, please contact us at info@c-id.net.

substitution of courses from private and out-of-state schools

I have just reviewed the September 2013 version of the document: Academic Senate Statements on Reciprocity, Course Substitution, and Credit by Exam - in light of AA-T and AS-T degrees, and I see the bolded statement, "the ASCCC urges colleges to allow all reasonable course substitutions that are consistent with the parameters of the TMC's." As a counselor, I've recently come across two specific scenarios that I believe this statement might apply to, however, in light of the likelihood that there will be additional such scenarios in the future, I'd like to clarify how these specific scenarios might be handled via this discussion board.
First scenario - a student on our campus would like to earn our AA-T Sociology. All of the courses in this degree have either approved or pending C-ID status. However, this student completed an Introduction to Sociology course at a private, non-profit (WASC accredited) university in CA and would like to use that course in the AA-T (Intro to Sociology is in the required core). Our normal substitution policy would be to request discipline faculty review of the private university course (typically via catalog description and course syllabus). If the course is determined by discipline faculty to be comparable to our local Intro to Soc. course, we would then allow this substitution for our local, non-TMC aligned degrees. Would this method of review also be acceptable to allow the substitution of the Intro to Soc. course from the private university to be used in our TMC-aligned AA-T Sociology degree?
Second scenario - similar to the first scenario except the student would like to earn our AA-T Psychology degree but has taken a General Psychology (a core requirement) course at a public university in Washington state. If the course from the out-of-state university is determined to be comparable to our C-ID approved General Psychology course by discipline faculty, is it appropriate to allow this substitution not only in a local non TMC-aligned degree but also in our TMC-aligned AA-T Psychology degree as well?

Course Substitutions

All the language in the "Reciprocity" document that defines how CCC courses that don't have C-ID numbers should be evaluated applies to other institutions from which we accept credit. I see that the language could be more explicit and appreciate the question. But I think that clarification makes the answer an easy "yes" - with the caveat indicated at the end of the paragraph below.
If a student transferring in from another community college took a course required for an AA-T or AS-T, but the course does not have a C-ID number or did not have one at the time the course was taken, local course substitution processes should be employed. Note that this presumes that the local course does have a C-ID designation. In the event the local course does not have a C-ID number and is in process with respect to C-ID approval, the local review process should incorporate the C-ID descriptor expectations. For instance, if a local course was submitted to C-ID lacking a required prerequisite the local process for review should incorporate that C-ID descriptor requirement into the local review process.

Engineering

Is there a contact person on the A.S. Engineering (Civil, Mechanical, Aero, Manufacturing) committee that I can communicate with for several questions that I have? Thanks :)

Contact

We do not publicize the names of the leads for any of our disciplines. We're happy to pass questions on and if the lead wishes to make a contact, he or she may do so. Any message sent to the general ASCCC or C-ID E-Mails will be routed to the right person as needed.

Engineering

Thank you for your response. You state that there are four MC's developed for Engineering, but I only see EE/Comp and Mech/Civil/Aero/Manu. It appears to me that the last four are "clumped together" for one MC. Is that true, or will there actually be four individual MC's within that last group? Thanks :)

Nothing has been clumped :-)

The engineering FDRG was asked to consider what courses would be common to all the forms of engineering being addressed. If it did make sense to present a common core with 3-4 different pathways, it would still effectively be 3-4 MC.

Engineering MC

In the draft MC for AS Engineering (Mech., Civil, Aero., Manuf.), Surveying (ENGR 180) is listed with a note: Recommended for CE if available. I agree with that recommendation, but the question that I need answered is this: Can we substitute that course with a recommended course for Mechanical, another substitution for Aerospace, and another for Manufacturing? If so, how would our substitutions be approved? Thanks! I appreciate your help :)

Questions

None of these are appropriate questions for this forum - and all are completely hypothetical until such time as there is a finalized MC available for use. Please forward your query to info@c-id.net and we'll get it to someone who can answer. Thanks!

AS Engineering

Our Engineering department is very interested in the Engineering (Mech., Civil, Aero., Manuf.) draft model curriculum. AS is checked with not AS-T in parentheses. So, this will be a state approved AS program, but it will not be AS-T? Also, will there be some flexibility in the area of emphasis? For example, Civil would take ENGR 180 Surveying, but Manufacturing would take ENGR XXX Machine Tool Technology. It seems to me that at least one of the sections should have several options for the four different pathways, instead of clumping them all together. Can someone please comment on this? Thanks for the opportunity to provide input.

AS Engineering

As there is no expectation that engineering will "fit" into the 60 + 60 model that was legislated by SB 1440, degrees based on this model curricula are not TMC-based AS-T degrees with the benefits for students as defined by the legislation and implementing Education Code. But engineering, like nursing, is an important major and there is great interest in identifying a way to allow it to enjoy some of the benefits of 1440. As such, a model curriculum (MC) is in the works. The thinking is that you would then have some defined XX + XX units for MC-aligned degrees that would then have statewide benefits for students that have yet to be defined (the benefits, that is). The unit parameters have also not been defined at the present time. As the FDRG developed 4 different MCs, I am not certain that I understand your question - I don't know what "clumping them all together" you are referring to. If you are suggesting that each one of these needs to have more options within it in order to serve more sub-specialties of engineering, that's really a question for the FDRG. Presumably, the package that they have proposed specifies the courses that are needed to serve the most students. There is no expectation that all facets of engineering would be served by these MCs. It has been envisioned that the CSUs will be asked to determine the MC "similar" (completable within XX units) - just as with the TMC - and options can sometimes prohibit this.

C-ID and transferring courses between colleges

I have a few counseling related questions.  I’ve read the August 2012  PDF Academic Senate Statements on Reciprocity, Course Substitution and Credit by Exam… in the Counselor Training Resources section of the SB1440 website, but did not find a specific answer to my questions.  
 Questions: When a counselor is advising a student pursuing an ADT in the scenario below, how will the counselor know if the transferring course in question has or has not been submitted to C-ID?  If submitted, how will the counselor know if C-ID did not approve the course?  Does it matter if they didn't?  Should the counselor submit to content faculty on his campus not knowing if the course was submitted to C-ID or not knowing, if submitted, not approved?
 Scenario:  Student is pursuing an AJ-ADT at college A.  College A offers only two course in List C – Statistics and Intro to Sociology both of which have approved C-ID numbers.  In the first and only semester at college A, the student takes and passes College Composition, Statistics, Art History and General Psychology. 
 The student decides to transfer to college B.  College B also has an AJ-ADT with List C populated by C-ID approved Stats, Gen Psych and Intro to Soc courses.  The student meets a counselor at college B who reviews the college A transcript and its AJ-ADT degree.  The counselor sees that all four course will meet CSU GE or IGETC requirements, and that Stats can fulfill one of college B’s AJ-ADT List C courses.  However, the student's Gen Psych wasn’t on college A’s AJ-ADT, so the counselor isn’t sure if the course can be used on college B’s ADT-AJ List C.  And the student wants to use the Gen Psych!
Counselor reads the Academic Senate memo Reciprocity, Course Substitution… but can’t find a definite answer.  The counselor is thinking: do I request our psychology faculty do a content review of college A’s Gen Psych course?  What if college A submitted the Gen Psych to C-ID and it was not approved?  Was the course even submitted to C-ID?
If you could give me guidance as to how the counselor should proceed as well as answers to the original questions, I’d appreciate it.
 

Courses not C-ID Approved

An updated version of the reciprocity document is in the works and I think it answers your question. Counselors are not expected to be C-ID sleuths. If a course does not have a C-ID designation, then your local processes for course substitution work - does the course compare to your course that has been C-ID approved? No one wants to make this more work for counselors.

Determining GPA for AA-T degree

 
Does the college (e.g. Academic Senate) get to approve whether the calculated GPA for AA-T degrees is based upon overall GPA or only on the 60 sem/90 qtr units of courses required for the AA-T?  If so, I'm wondering what colleges/Senates, if any, have decided.

GPA and AA-T and AS-T Degrees

A GPA of 2.0 in all CSU transferable courses is required and within that:
To qualify for admission as an upper division transfer, applicants must complete 60 or more transferable semester or 90 quarter units and have met the following requirements: Completed at least 30 semester (45 quarter) units of general education courses, graded C or better in each course

TMC 100% goal worksheet, what gets counted in denominator??

Here's an example: We have a degree where a core required course on the TMC is 3 units while the course we offer is 2 units. The faculty at our college strongly believe that the course should be just 2 units and don't want to up it just so they can make a TMC aligned degree.
So, the more general question that also includes the example above - when is an AA/AS degree considered TMC aligned so that it must get counted as a degree which requires a TMC aligned degree be developed by Fall 2014?

Unclear.

Courses in a TMC-aligned degree must conform to the minimum units indicated. As you have chosen to not provide any context for the question, I can only give you the generic answer. TMC-aligned degrees are not TMC-aligned unless all the courses conform to the specified parameters. Again, you're getting the generic answer as you have posed a generic question.

Cranking the clarity dial to 11

By Fall 2013, we need to offer 80% of the TMC degrees that match existing AS/AA degrees that we offer. How much leeway do we have in this matching? Do we have to modify exisiting courses within AS/AA degrees so that they match the requirements of the TMC, thus allowing us to offer the TMC for that discipline? Or would this count as a degree that can't be offered as TMC, because the faculty believe changing the parameters isn't academically sound for our students, and so that AS or AA degree would not count against us in the 80% number?
To me, the way I've worded this is NOW general. I gave a very specific, real life example in my first question. A core required course on the TMC is listed as 3 units, but our course is 2 units. Faculty strongly believe it should just be 2 units, and don't want to just mess with their entire program to realign content so that that course could then be 3 units. Does the degree in that discipline count as one of the degrees we need a TMC in eventually?
I am not sure how to provide more context than that. This is a simple question but related to a deep philosophical problem with TMC's - how much academic freedom do faculty have related to these TMC's?

Specific = named course (s) and TMC

Until you are naming a course or courses and a specific TMC, your question remains general.
If you are going to offer a TMC-aligned degree, the specified and required courses must match the indicated parameters in the C-ID descriptor. It should be noted, however, that there are TMCs where a course is a specified option in one component of the TMC (such as an instance where the TMC indicates that one course from a list of 3 must be selected from "List A") and that same course could be used somewhere "lower" (and less specified) in the TMC. Since we're speaking in general and hypothetical terms, let's go all the way - the TMC specifies that the locally developed degree must require one of green, blue, or pink in List A - and each is described with a C-ID descriptor that requires aqua as a prereq. Your college offers green and blue - but only green has the prereq - so you could use green for that list A requirement. List D of the TMC opens things up to courses that fill a certain GE area - and your blue course meets that GE requirement. So your course that did not "match" in one part of the TMC could be used elsewhere. Given that many TMCs have a rather "open" final list, this sort of movement could happen quite frequently.
Again, without knowing what discipline and courses you are having the 2 VS 3 unit issue with, it is impossible to answer your question effectively. If the issue is that you have chosen to offer content  more commonly covered in 2 3-unit courses and you have opted to do so in a 2-unit course plus a 4-unit one, there are solutions for that. If the course is merely an option, then it may not even matter.
Most TMCs allow for options for the local faculty as they develop their degrees - most only specify a limited number of courses so that the CSU can be guaranteed a certain minimal preparation. And the C-ID descriptors do not dictate course content, they describe the minimum. The whole purpose here is to set up a structure that establishes some minimum consistency - so that we can work in a coordinated manner for our students, yet still maintain local control of our curriculum.

AAT/AST

I'm fairly new to articulation and in reviewing SB1440, I noticed that it recomends CCC's to use CSU breadth or IGETC or our own GE pattern to meet the general ed req for the AAT/AST.  What if the GE pattern we are using to meet AAT/AST GE req doesn't cover all areas of CSU or IGETC.  Since CSU or IGETC certification is not required, will the students complete the rest of the GE BA/BS grad requirments at the university and will they do so within the 120 units? 
If our students complete the CSU Breadth or IGETC plus units in the major, they will go over the 60 units. 

AA-T and AS-T Degrees Require TRANSFER GE - Not Local

You can not use your own GE pattern for AA-T and AS-T degrees. You are required to use CSU GE breadth or IGETC. Nowhere should it be recommended that you use your local GE pattern - I hope that is a misinterpretation, not something posted somewhere. If your degree can't be completed in 60 units (including that transfer GE pattern), your degree will not be approved as an AA-T or AS-T degree.

AA-T/AS-T and CLEP or AP credit

Will the use of AP or CLEP credit for courses designated as C-ID affect the AA-T or AS-T transfer guarantee?
How are AP and/or CLEP being applied within the context of C-ID and AA-T/AS-T?
 

AP, IB, CLEP, and Associate Degrees for Transfer

The use of external exams and how a community college awards credit for them is a local determination.