SB 1440 Discussion Board

This discussion board is for questions related to the SB1440 legislation.  We welcome questions on this important topic. If your question is particular to counseling issues, please click on the discussion board for the AA-T/AS-T discussion.  If you're not sure which board to post to, please review the previous questions.  Thank you. 

Comments

1. How many units can be required in a 1440 degree?
2. What does it mean to develop a TMC-aligned degree - can additional course requirements be added? Can 7-8 courses be required as opposed to the 6 indicated by the TMC, for example?

1. A minimum of 18 units is required in the major component of the degree. And the degree can't be designed to mandate more than 60 units - of course many students will go over 60. But the degree can't be designed to mandate it. 
2. A TMC-aligned degree is just that - one that requires the number of courses delineated in the TMC. Variable units are indicated to reflect existing variations in units - not to permit variability in the number of courses offered. If you want an AA-T psychology degree that requires 8 courses, you can do that - but it will not be TMC-aligned and will have to provide the non-TMC justifications.

In a perfect world, there would be some "play" - such that the student did not have all 60 units "dictated" and could explore - or opt to take a CSU transferable course that does not count toward GE or the major.

It has been reported that the CSUs are being asked to determine whether or not a TMC-based degree is "similar" to a given CSU major. How has "similar" been defined for this purpose?

The CSU faculty  have been asked, “If a transfer student comes to you with the preparation specified in the TMC (including lower-division GE) can you deliver your baccalaureate degree  with 60 units to work with (noting that upper-division GE must be part of this 60 units.)”  They are answering that question for each option in their degrees. 

 

For the 1st 3 finalized TMCs (comm, soc, and psych), 17-18 of the responding CSUs have deemed them "similar".

There are still a couple of things I'm confused about. Our CSU-GE can be over 39 units depending on the courses selected. Are we just certifying 39 units of GE and ignoring the rest (any additional units)? It's possible that a college could have fewer or more that 60 units when combining GE and major and not have 2 or 1 unit courses that would hit 60 spot on. What is the alternative in these situations? My feeble mind wants to know. ;-)

The degrees must be designed such that the student can finish the required coursework within 60 units. There is no expectation that a student would have all courses dictated by the college. Ideally, students are permitted to do some exploration within the 60 CSU transferable units for the degree.

This isn't a reply but a follow-up question.  The proposed TMC for Physics consists of 27 units.  Double-counting a math and physics class as GE means students need an additional 33 units of GE (3 units in each of the other GE categories).  However, Engl 1A, a required class  for which there is no alternative, is 4 units at our campus.  Thus, students will have to take 34 units of additional GE plus the 27 units in the TMC, for a total of 61 units.  Students can't be required to take more than 60 units for these degrees, though, so what happens in a case like this?

I had an interesting conversation today with a number of people who were concerned with whether creating new courses to complete a TMC on our campus would have difficulty getting "articulated". Apparently the normal articulation process can take up to a year (getting three CSU's to agree to accept a course). I seemed to be the only one who thought that all of that was no longer relevant and that one of the main purposes of 1440 was to make it so that if a course is listed as one of the approved C-ID courses, that they are by definition articulated with all CSU's. I am also assuming that if a course is in a TMC, it already has an approved C-ID number. Am I wrong?

The TMCs are a mix with respect to whether or not there is a C-ID descriptor for the courses. If there is a C-ID descriptor and your course(s) are consistent with it, then you do not have to establish articulation (your courses do, of course, have to be transferable to the CSU). Where there is no descriptor and articulation is called for, then that articulation needs to be established. Communication studies and sociology have used descriptors quite extensively. In psychology, there are currently only descriptors in development for 2 additional courses that might potentially be major prep - and colleges that have those courses would likely have the articulation in place.

 

In order to "have" the articulation in place as called for in a TMC, you need only have articulation with one CSU.

There should be existing descriptors for the courses that you are required to have. Where you have choices - such as a course that is articulated as major prep - you should be using your existing articulation.

In addition, once we do have more finalized descriptors you would have that route to articulation.

What entity in the CSU (and the UC, for that matter) is responsible for determining the criteria for accepting courses as appropriate for general education?  I ask because double counting major prep courses as gen ed is a very important component to making a transfer degree plan (TMC) work--particularly for majors that consist of highly sequential, high-unit lower-division preparation.

Does the ASCCC, through ICAS, have any influence over this process?  Would a resolution requesting a review and revision of CSU/UC general education criteria give the ASCCC the opportunity to initiate such a discussion?

In particular, it would be helpful for the CSU to accept experiential courses in fine and performing arts as satisfying a portion of their 9 unit Area C requirement.  It has always seemed ludicrous to discipline faculty in the arts that courses about art (appreciation), by virtue of their acceptance as gen ed, are regarded as helping to make a well-rounded and educated person, but that courses that allow participation in making art, by virtue of their current exclusion from gen ed, do not.  Certainly no one would propose substituting "History of Math" for an actual math course as general education, yet this is exactly the position in which the arts disciplines currently find themselves.

This is really not a 1440, TMC, or C-ID question - but I understand why it is being brought up here. ;-) There are established procedures and criteria for having a course approved for CSU GE and/or IGETC. If the ASCCC were to advocate for any special considerations, this would have to be initiated by a resolution. 

I'm not sure what meaning of "pass along" this is about. If this is regarding the pass along of courses for GE, I have not heard any concerns expressed. If this is regarding the concept of pass along for courses within a TMC, the same holds true. When a CSU indicates that a given TMC is "similar", they are indicating that they can make a TMC-aligned degree work - not a specific degree as developed by a given CCC. Given that, there should not be any concern if CCCs are choosing to honor one another's course determinations (i.e., allowing for TMC consistent substitutions). In other words, if my psych degree permitted only biopsych for the 1st list with options in the TMC, we could opt to honor other courses that were "pass alongs" - such as bio courses used in that same place in the TMC at other colleges.

 

Note - there has been concern expressed by CSU with respect to course substitutions. They are concerned about inappropriate course substitutions and have asked for some assurances in this area. A "pass along" policy would not be an "inappropriate" substitution. If I have completely confused you, please post a question telling me what I need to clarify.

 

Thanks!

Jane's email says that 18 CSUs will accept Psych and Soc and 16 will accept Communication.  How can we find out which CSUs are willing to accept which TMC?

The suggested TMC for Mathematics includes a common core. The student is then given options from two groups of courses, Group A and Group B. The wording of the TMC is

Choose a minimum of 6 units from below with at least 3 units from Group A.

Group A

 

Differential Equations     3

Linear Algebra              3

 

Can we add a course to Group A but keep the instruction as written? If we do, students could essentially forgo both Differential Equations AND Linear Algebra. We have been told that we can move courses UP from Group B to Group A but not DOWN from Group A to Group B. By placing an additional course in Group A, again, this would allow students to NOT take a TMC-listed class from Group A.

 

One idea may be to change the wording for Group A to read "at least 6 units from Group A". This is not the intent of our faculty. They do not want to require the students to take the course they are adding to Group A. They want it as an option.

 

Again, can we add a course to Group A and allow students to forgo both Differential Equations AND Linear Algebra?

Just some things to note.

1. It is great to be having a serious discussion about the courses in a TMC before it is finalized, but keep in mind that it is not yet finalized until it is. While I don't think math will be changing, it always could. If it is ready to finalized, it will be posted the week of March 14.

2. Respect the intent of the TMC - keep that in mind.

 

I'm answering your question based on memory and what you have said. 

Looking at:

Choose a minimum of 6 units from below with at least 3 units from Group A.



Group A



Differential Equations     3



Linear Algebra              3
 

 

I think we can agree that the INTENT is that a student be required to take one or the other (Differential Equations or Linear Algebra). If you wanted to add another option from below (Group B) and then require 6 units from Group A, that would work - you would still be consistent with the intent of the TMC - the student would be required to take at least one of the original Group A options. If you have not had a look at the sample math degrees in the "TMC Overview" document, I would encourage you to do so. 

Under List C of the Sociology TMC, 3 units can be selected from "Any course not selected....or introductory course in the social sciences."  There is some confusion on this campus regarding the introductory course in the social sciences.  Since "course" is singular, I am assuming it is a survey course, however, the department is thinking that it means any intro courses to the social sciences, like Intro to Social Welfare, Amerian Pluralism, or Changing Roles of Women which are housed in the social sciences on this campus.  Any clarification would be appreciated.

It is my understanding that the intent was to permit your typical intro level courses in the social sciences - your courses of the "101" variety. Generally, these are courses that are major prep in their respective discipline. Note, of course, if any of those courses are CSU-transferable sociology courses they are an option.

 

List C reads:

"Any courses not selected above, any CSU transferable sociology courses, and/or other courses (in or outside the discipline) that are articulated as lower division major preparation for the Sociology major at a CSU (e.g. Cultural Anthropology, General Psychology) or introductory course in the social sciences."

We've provided general "placeholder" language. Due to the many uncertainties, the many unknowns, we have not been able to provide any sort of standard explanation for specific majors. We don't quite yet know what all these degrees will and won't do for students - so we are holding off on that for the time being.

We need catalog descriptions in order to approve these new degrees locally and for the application for State approval!  Could you please post samples of "approvable" degree descriptions so we know what needs to be addressed to get these approved by the state?

If any of these AA-Ts have been approved the catalog descriptions used for those could be shared without any additional writing required.

We could wing it but since we are all developing the same degrees (with some differences in specific courses to meet requirements) collaboration seems important here.

We have a Curriculum Committee approval deadline this month and could use some help!

Please advise. Thanks!

Given all the unknowns, we gave up on trying to do more than just placeholder language at this time. When we know more, we can go back and work on that. If anyone wants to share language, please go ahead and respond here.

The Math TMC includes a course in Linear Algebra.  At Fullerton College we have two courses with those words in the title - Math 250BF and Math 172 F.  The course
content of both courses includes every item from the list of required
topics posted on the website.

However, the prerequisite for CAN MATH 26 Linear Algebra as described on
the TMC document is Calculus II, which would be our Math 150BF. 

The prerequisite for our Math 172 F is Math 141 F College Algebra and 142 F Trig. 

So, question one is:

Does this difference in prerequisites prohibit our including Math
172 F as an option for the linear algebra requirement?

And question two…

If we cannot include MATH 172 F for the linear algebra requirement, can we include it as a restricted elective for the MATH AS-T?

Our MATH 172 F is articulated as major prep for CSUF, our most local campus.

Please advise. Thanks!

 

Sorry for the delay - I thought it best to go to the math FDRG with this question. And here is the answer provided - this may be more information than you were looking for - but I think it helps to "reveal" the thinking that went into the TMC. They were all designed to facilitate the development of degrees that really "work" for transfer.

 

"They could use their 5 unit Math 250BF which has a prerequisite of Calculus II.  The other course is not for Math majors, hence the lower prerequisite.  The FDRG did discuss having it as an option in Group B, and opted not to put it as an alternative.  I believe we were concerned that it would not count towards the BS degree, unlike Statistics which would be used by CC's near CSU Stanislaus.  CSU Stanislaus required Statistics.  We were concerned the Linear Algebra course with a lower prerequisite would be for Engineering majors or other majors and not Math majors.  Since most CC's can only offer one type of Linear Algebra course, we wanted to make sure to include in the TMC what was accepted at most of the CSU's.  Since Fullerton College does offer Math 250, couldn't they put that in their AS-T and not Math 172?  Would CPP accept their Math 172?  My concern is that only CSU Fullerton will accept it and there are other local CSU's, e.g. CPP, who would not accept it, hence if Fullerton College  included Math 172 in its AS-T then this degree would be valid or useful for only CSU Fullerton and not for CPP."

As my college's Physics degree is in the process of being built, I notice that the TMC requirements for the Physics major is less course work than the articulation agreements we have with our local CSU. Our Physics premajor prep in far more units than the TMC. How will the CSUs view students transferring into majors such as Physics that have far more premajor prep than what is required in the TMC? Will they view them as underprepared for the major even though they have an SB 1440 degree?

In order for a degree to conform to the 1440 requirements, it must meet the 1440 requirements. This means "fitting" major prep and GE into 60 semester units. In the case of many of the highly sequenced science majors, this may mean not including courses that are generally required at the CSU. The legislation establishes our 60-unit majors as the preparation for transfer.

It is our understanding that these degrees will be accepted as preparation - again, that is what the legislation calls for. We're still working out many of the admission-related details, hence my rather tentative responses.

It should be noted that you can always encourage and advise students to do more than what the degree calls for. The CSU will still consider units beyond the 60 to the extent that they always have.

One of the challenges that the Physics FDRG had to deal with was finding a way to create a TMC that would allow the majority of community colleges to create an aligned degree. To meet the 60 unit requirement was not an easy task because very little double counting of GE was possible. We decided that this was the best that we could do with 60 units and our CSU faculty agreed that this was more than many transferring physics majors would have completed. We encourage colleges to have counselors recommend that students take additional major preparation beyond the degree reqrememnts. The student could transfer an additional 10 units but we were not allowed to require that.

We've carefully read the PSY TMC and comments.  For list A, indications are that this should (or needs to be) a biologically bases course, preferabley one designated CSU GE B4.  However, could physiological psychology be submitted?  This course does not have B4 or life sciences designation nor does it have a biology pre-requisite.  However, it does deal with physiological processes....

The Pyschology Department would very much like to list jsut this course for List A.

In addition, can just one course be listed for C as a requirement for our TMC?  Again, we've carefully read the guidelines and it appears that one course could be in this area thus requiring it for our TMC.

Thank you!

 

Greetings! Your physio psychology course does not have to carry the possible GE certification indicated. It does, however, need to match the C-ID descriptor. If it does, then you can include it. And having that as the only List A option is fine - and makes sense of that is the selection most commonly desired by the CSUs to whom you feed.

 

Yes, you can have just one course in List C - provided that course either has articulation as major prep or GE at a CSU. No TMC can be designed so as to mandate that a student take a course that does not fill a specific transfer function (i.e., GE or major prep).

The Mathematics TMC was to be finalized on February 25. We have not heard or received a final TMC yet. Any word on when that will be posted? We are ready to go, here at Reedley College.

The "Group 2" TMC ended their vetting period on February 28. Any resulting finalized TMC will be posted early next week (on or just after March 14). After the vetting concludes, the Faculty Discipline Review Group (FDRG) has to meet to review and respond to the feedback received. Once they have completed this process, the Intersegmental Curriculum Workgroup reviews the work of the FDRG. If everything is in order, then the finalized TMC is posted.

Do we have assurances from the CSUs that they will accept the AATs as lower division preparation for acceptance into the major -- if students are applying out of their local service area?  For instance, most of the students in our Comm area want to go to CSULB, CSUF, SDSU, CSULA, or CSUF.  Each has a list of lower division courses they want students to take to be admitted to their major.  Do the degrees COVER these, or could the CSUs require additional courses of students with the AAT Comm to be admitted?

If the answer is no, the AAT-COMM degree is nearly useless for the majority of our COMM students.  It could even prohibit them from achieveing successful transfer to an appropriate school for their major (if they take the wrong classes in the sequences).  It would also be massively confusing to them.  We would need to call our degree "AAT in Comm but only to Cal Poly Pomona."  Is it really useless anywhere else? 

Thanks for your help... 

We are ACTIVELY working on this right now - I am on a call related to this topic at this very moment. What we do know now is that there are 16 CSUs that have indicated that they can make a TMC-aligned degree "work". You can see this list on the C-ID website. As we have more information, we will share it. We're currently seeking to nail down details regarding admission. This is very much a work in progress - patience is much appreciated.

According to the calendar on the C-ID website, the finalized TMC's for Criminal Studies, Kinesiology, and Math are supposed to be available to colleges today (March 14).  I don't see them on the C-ID website yet.  Is there an estimated time/day we can expect them?  Thank you.

This week we are working on determining what the "Group 3" disciplines will be - and determining which of the Group 2 are "final". Math has been finalized - and it is posted on the C-ID website. PE/Kinesiology is not and AJ is still being reviewed. The final determination should be made on Monday (March 21). When it was reviewed by the Intersegmental Curriculum Workgroup, several questions emerged. We do apologize for the delay.

Both the AJ and Kinesiology/TMCs will be vetted again. Math is the only finalized TMC from Group 3 at this time.

Napa Valley College has a question. When will we know which CSU our students will automatically be accepted into? We are assuming it will be Sonoma State University but will it include Sacramento State University as well? It would be nice to have a list.

Please visit the C-ID website. The CSUs that have indicated that the 1st 3 TMC are "similar" to their majors are provided in a document that is available just beneath the finalized TMCs.

Just to clarify what you are saying:

If someone earns a 1440 degree from Napa Valley College, they will have priority at any of the CSU's which has accepted that particular 1440 degree, not just the CSU's close to us.

I don't think I've said anything about priority. Priority is one of those topics where we do not yet have any information. When information on priority is available, it will be shared. But there is no information to share at this time.

Can a community college submit the following as a blanket coverage for all its AA-T and AS-T degrees?

  "Any student completing the requirements specified in the articulation agreement found at assist.org for the intended major and transfer institution will receive an associate transfer degree provided that the student completes 60 total units.  These 60 units must include completion of either the IGETC or CSU GE coursework."

I understand that the Chancellor's office may not expedite approval since such a degree proposal doesn't include the much anticipated TMC.  The TMC appears to be a compromise list of courses that may not be the best advice for students with a specific transfer institution in mind.

No. Any degree that a community college is awarding must be approved the the Chancellor's Office. While the TMC may indicate "a course that meets X requirements", a CCC degree must list specific courses. This has always been a requirement when seeking degree approval.

 

Creating a non-TMC aligned degree is an option if aligning with the TMC does not make sense for your college or for a given major.

Have you discussed how AP credit will be applied with these degrees?  Can it only be used for the GE or can it be used to meet major requirements?

It is not clear why AP and its application to AA-T and AS-T degrees would be any different than current practices with respect to AP use in degrees. Can you expand on this question?

If a community college's 'local admission' CSU does not deem a TMC (EX Communications) as similar to their Baccalaureate degree. Would the AA-T degree be accepted at closest CSU that has deemed a similar degree? I am not sure if this can be answered yet; however it may need to be considered.

The "acceptance" of a TMC is not location-bound. Aspects related to "local admission", priority, and other admissions-related topics are not yet known. When we have that sort of information, you can be sure it will be shared.

Is there a difference between "Assigned" C-ID designation and approved C-ID courses?

The Transfer Documentation that is required for proposed AA-T degress requires documentation of

1. Assigned C-ID designation or; 2. Assigned TCSU number etc.

Can you please explain what is meant by "Assigned" C-ID designation.  On our campus "Assigned" is being assumed to mean approved-yet the only currently approved C-ID courses are the ones that had prior TCSU numbers.   Are CCC faculty allowed to self-identify their courses that they believe match the C-ID descriptor for purposes of TMC submission?   Thanks

When submitting a TMC-aligned degree, you just need to indicate that your courses "match" the C-ID descriptor - where appropriate. So, yes, CCC faculty are allowed to self-identify for the purpose of these degrees.

Will you be providing a common description for the new majors?  I am specifically talking about the major descriptor for the college catalog for students to read. 

As stated elsewhere, until we know more about the degrees and what they do, no such generic language can be provided.

Will we need LMI data for the AJ/CJ TMC based degrees (or any of the others in Groups 1,2,3)?

It looks like a "transfer" degree but I thought presenters in one of the CCConfer sessions used it as an example of one that required LMI data...please confirm or deny : )!
Thanks!

I want to be consistant with the AA-T and AS-T designations.

I noticed that last Administrative Justice/Criminal Justice TMC was an AS-T. I thought at one of the SB-1440 webinars that AS-T designations were going to be for STEM majors and AA-T designations would be for everything else. Is the AS-T designation for only STEM majors? Thanks. 

 

The definition of AS adopted by the ASCCC is that "AS" would refer to STEM AND CTE. Therefore, AJ or CJ would be referred to as an AS due to the CTE nature of the discipline.

The AS-T and AA-T designations were adopted by the CCCCO from the ASCCC Resolution:

04.04 2010 Spring Title 5 Changes Defining a Transfer Associate Degree

In that resolution all STEM and CTE programs will be AS and all the others will be AA.  It was never enacted into Title 5, but the CCCCO has adopted it for the Transfer Degree designations.

 

The reason the AA and AS language was not adopted was not due to a lack of interest in doing so, but due to the Department of Finance. It was blocked as an unfunded mandate by the DoF.

My colleagues and I are putting together an AA-T in Communication Studies.

One of the courses included in the TMC is Forensics.  We’ve been requested by our campus administration to make it non-variable units.  It used to be offered as a variable of up to 4 units of credit.  At present, it has been set at 4, due to our administration’s request to make it non-variable.

TMC in Comm Studies permits 3 units for Forensics. 

The question is: Will our degree be rejected if we have 4 units for Forensics? Or must we hold it at 3 units per the TMC? 

Technically, only 3/4 units would "count" for the degree - per the TMC. As long as you were not using that 4th unit to count toward the 18 unit minimum for the major, it should not be a problem - but this is really a Chancellor's Office call. The cap was imposed due to the recognition that it is commonly a variable unit course and should not be "over-used" within the degree - not to make a distinction between a 3 and a 4 unit course. I'll ask some others to weigh in so that the answer is more definite. This is a tentative response at the present time.

I ran this issue by the Chancellor's Office and both a CCC and a CSU faculty member on the FDRG. As long as that additional unit does not somehow push you over 60 and it is not replacing any other units in the 18 required, you're good.

Not at the present time - right now we are focusing on getting the disciplines that are in process through the process. We're aware of the need to work on the existing descriptors for philosophy and hope to address those in the near future. If you have not signed up for the list-serv for philosophy, please be sure to do so - that way you will not miss any announcements.

As with any GE call for a given course, this is dependent upon the local determination made by the CCC faculty and the CSU's acceptance of the course for one or the other - or both GE areas. The TMC indicates possible GE options - it does not dictate anything. The TMC indicates "Possible CSU GE" options - it does not dictate or determine GE applicability.

Thanks for posting this question here - it is likely to come up again in other contexts.

 

Hi,

In the "Credit Program Instructions" document, pg 19 it mentions:

"When a TMC is finalized, a template will be available, similar to the example on page 21, which will be uploaded as an attachment to the AA-T or AS-T degree proposal in the Curriculum Inventory. The community college will complete the columns in the right half of the table to indicate which courses in the TMC have been adopted."

I have not found these online. Are they available for Psychology and Sociology?

Thank you

 

Can you explain how the "flexibility" of this descriptor will work? 
 For example, will a CC select only one option and then their students will
be "directed" to CSUs that follow that model, or will a CC be able to offer
more than one option thus giving their students more flexibility as to the
different CSU programs.

This sounds like a question about a TMC, as opposed to descriptor. A CCC that wishes to develop a TMC-aligned degree creates that degree within the defined parameters of the TMC. Within a locally developed TMC-aligned degree, there may be great flexibility or it may be limited. The local discussion regarding what the degree should look like and where students are likely to go will drive the final determination.

It is not clear what "option" you are referencing. If the TMC indicates that a student should take one of X, Y, or Z, the CCC can give students any of the following options:
1. one of X, Y, or Z.
2. X
3. Y
4. Z.
5. X or Y.
6. X or Z.
7. Y or Z.

Choices made should be based on the CCC's offerings and existing articulation. In other words, there could be varied "options" within a CCC degree.

After the regional meeting on Saturday, I realized that I am having trouble interpreting "List B" to our Sociology Department.  We have many of those courses on our campus, and they transfer to our local CSU.  However, the "tag" at the end of that list refers refers to courses articulated as lower division major preparation at a CSU.  Does this mean that List B may only contain courses we have articulated as lower division prep for the major?  Thanks.

If any list on a TMC contains both specific courses (identified by a descriptor) AND opens options up to courses with specified articulation, a CCC can include courses that are comparable to the specific identified courses AND courses that have the indicated articulation. Where there is a specific course identified by a C-ID descriptor, the college is "self-certifying" that its course is comparable. For courses that are included based on the specific articulation, the existence of that articulation must be demonstrated using ASSIST.

Can you clarify if the American Institutions requirement for community colleges is not required in TMC degrees?  I thought it remained a degree requirement, as well as English 1A and math.  Only local degree requirements not mandated in Title 5, such as P.E., were prohibited.  As usual, any information or enlightenment is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

The Am Institutions requirement has never been a CCC degree requirement. It is a CSU graduation requirement. Nothing has changed with respect to this requirement. 1440 degrees consist of transfer GE + major. While courses that fill this requirement can be taken as part of GE, and the community colleges have always encouraged students to do so, this not a general education requirement or a component of transfer admission.

Message from CCCCO (May 23, 2011):

I’m happy to announce that six new TMC templates will be ready by May 31, 2011, for colleges to submit proposals for associate degrees for transfer in Administration of Justice, Early Childhood Education, Physics, Geology, History and Theatre Arts. See participant instructions below.

The Chancellor’s Office will begin priority review of proposed degrees that are aligned with these TMC on May 31st.


During the webinar, we will also introduce new and improved TMC templates for Communication Studies, Psychology, Sociology and Mathematics. Thanks to everyone for helping us to work out some bugs.


FYI: 36 associate degrees for transfer have now been approved for 23 colleges. Ten colleges have two or more degrees approved  and are now compliant with SB 1440.

 

Stephanie Low

Dean, Curriculum & Instruction

Academic Affairs Division

California Community Colleges Chancellor's Office

 

WEBINARS PARTICIPANT INVITATION

EVENT DETAILS:


Event: How to Use New TMC Templates for Developing AS-T and AA-T Degrees

5/31/2011
2:00 - 4:00PM

PARTICIPANT DETAILS

> Dial your telephone conference line:(888) 886-3951

> Enter your passcode: 243506

> Go to www.cccconfer.org.

> Click the Participant Log In button under the Webinars logo

> Locate your meeting and click Go.

> Fill out the form and enter the password:243506

PARTICIPANT CONFERENCE FEATURES:
*0 - Contact the operator for assistance.
*6 - Mute/unmute your individual line with a private announcement.

 

Twelve TMC's have been approved since the beginning of May, yet we still only have CSU confirmation of similar majors on the original 4? (Communciation, Sociology, Psychology and Math).  Is there information as to when can we expect to have the CSU's report on whether they deem the TMC's "similar" to their majors for these new 12?

We've been told that the CSUs that did not declare a given TMC "similar" when asked the first time are being asked to reconsider how they might make that TMC work. In other words, the process is taking longer as there is an attempt to get more similar determinations. Preliminary reports suggest that some of the TMCs being reviewed are doing really well - and others not quite so well. The need for these determinations has been stressed by the CCC at every opportunity. We'll start pushing out some sort of update after each 1440 Oversite Committee meeting so the field will know what is happening. I wish we had a way to speed things up. In other words, stay tuned...

NOTE - Apologies for the delay in responding. I was not receiving notifications of new posts.

If an AA/AS-T is approved with coursework that has no C-ID designation and those same courses are submitted for C-ID designation after the degree was approved; how does this affect the approved degree if any?  Does the degree need to be re-submitted for approval? Is there a process to only submit the courses? 

There most certainly is a process of submitting a course to C-ID. Your Articulation Officer (AO) handles this task. You should be contacting your AO to submit your course outlines for a C-ID designation as soon as descriptors exist for the courses in your degree.

NOTE - Apologies for the delay in responding. I was not receiving notifications of new posts.

The List A of the History TMC designates a 2-semester world history series for 6 units or a 2-semester series of western civ classes, however, our college’s world history series of _3_ courses is designed to align with a couple of majors at CSU Chico which require a 3-semester series.  What should we do?

 

Can we simply ask for 6 units chosen from World History I, II, or III (which seems like the simple answer)?  Or must we discard these courses and design a new two-course series of world history?  Thanks.

As C-ID descriptors are being used to "define" courses for the TMCs, you should check to see how your courses compare. If your 3 courses are comparable to the two courses described by C-ID, then they could be used - provided you do not exceed the 1440 prescribed unit limit. From the C-ID stance, this would make sense - but you may also want to consult with the Chancellor's Office as they will be the ones approving your degree.

NOTE - Apologies for the delay in responding. I was not receiving notifications of new posts.

Has a CCC Counselor SB 1440 advising tool been developed for counselors to use with CCC students?

If so, please send or let me know where I can get this information.

If not, any timeline as to when it will be developed.

Thank you

There is no official advising document as of yet, but there are unofficial ones that have been circulating. Please consult your Articulation Officer for assistance - he or she should be able to help, or contact someone who can.

When there is a tool available, we will push it out through all available channels.

NOTE - Apologies for the delay in responding. I was not receiving notifications of new posts.

When to submit Student Statement of Intent to Earn AA-T/AS-T Degree Form?

I only recently stumbled onto this new required form at: calstate.edu/transfer/degrees/StatementofIntentToEarnAssociateDegree.shtml. This new form states “California Community College AA-T/AS-T degree applicants for the Spring 2012 or Fall 2012 applying to a CSU Similar degree program must submit to the CSU campus a ‘Student Statement of Intent to Earn AA-T/AS-T Degree Form’ to receive the priority consideration for admission.” Although this seems to be a mandatory form for a CSU applicant to receive priority admission, I could not find any information about it on the CSUMentor website. When must this form be submitted, before or after the CSU application due date November 30? Both the community college transfer center and the local CSU admission department were unable to answer this essential question. A swift response to my question would be very much appreciated, since the CSU application due date is only 10 days away.

Thank you.

Sorry, this is a question for the CSU Chancellor's Office, not for the Academic Senate for California Community Colleges. Even if we were in possession of this information, it is CSU's responsibility to answer such questions and it would not be appropriate for us to provide this information. We have no authority with respect to this.

CSU-SJ requires the following for Lower Division which I have mapped to the TMC for Business

(All TMC required core 15-17 units)

Bus 20 (3) - ACCT110(3-4)

Bus 21 (3) - ACCT120(3-4)

Econ 1A (3) - Microeconomics

Econ 1B (3) - Macroeconomics

Bus 80 (3) - Business Law

Total 15 - 17 units OK on this part of the TMC

LIST A (Select 1 3-4 Units)

BUS90(3) - Stat110(3-4)

Total 3 Units OK on this part of the TMC

List B (Select 2 5-8 Units)

1 from A

MATH71(3)  - Business Calculus(3)

BUS10(3)  - BUS110(3)

However, CSU-SJ ALSO requires

BUS91L(1) - maps to BUS140(3)

9 units exceeds the required 8

My question is this:

1.  If I design a TMC for Business from my college, I will require more than the 5-8 in the template for Part B.  Please advise how I can proceed.  I can't understand how I can get away with creating a TMC that exceeds the number in this category, however, all of the courses listed are required.

 

The TMCs are intended to facilitate the development of degrees that will meet the requirements of as many CSUs as possible. There is no guarantee or expectation that the TMC will meet the needs of any one CSU. You don't "design a TMC" - you have the option of developing a TMC-aligned degree. As you have explained here, CSU-SJ requires one more course than is permitted by the TMC - and this is a TMC that is already pushing up against the unit limit. It is likely that inclusion of that additional course can't be permitted as the 60-unit limit would be exceeded. In other words, as you have explained it there is no way to develop a 1440-consistent degree for CSU-SJ due to the size of this CSU's lower division preparation. If all the units can "fit", you could consider developing a non-aligned degree that is, effectively, TMC-aligned + 1 course. The purpose of this discussion is not to provide a personal analysis of issues - so I am answering based solely on the information you have provided.

Do CCCs have to follow the C-ID course descriptors regarding prerequisites if they are developing courses and TMCs in a discipline? We are developing a TMC in Political Science at Fresno City College and would like to establish an English writing prequisite for the American government course, but the draft C-ID  PolSci 110 has no English writing prerequisite. If colleges establish prerequisites for a course and the C-ID descriptor has none, is this considered a local graduation requirement?

Just a reminder of terminology - you are not developing a TMC. You are developing a TMC-aligned degree. A TMC is something that is developed at the state level and then used locally as a guide of sorts.

If a C-ID descriptor indicates a prerequisite, courses approved as matching that descriptor must have that prerequisite.

A course prerequisite is not a graduation requirement. Depending on what the prerequisite was, you might have to include it in the unit count for the degree. And one would expect that an English prerequisite would likely be something that would need to be completed in order to graduate, right?

 

My apologies if this is already addressed somewhere and I've missed it. I *think* I know the answer but want to verify before guiding my curriculum committee. Here's the issue:

I have the "CSU Similar Degree Report" from http://www.sb1440.org/Counseling.aspx

Looking at the TMC for English... Let's say we have lots of students who transfer to San Jose State University for their B.A. in English-Creative Writing, and we also have lots of students who transfer to CSU-SF for their B.A. in English - Literature Concentration.

I totally understand that in this example both CSU-SF and SJSU have indicated that an AA-T aligned with the English TMC would be appropriate preparation for either of these concentrations (CW or Literature). However, there's quite a bit of latitude for CCCs in the courses they include when creating their English AA-T. Would it be allowable/advisable to create TWO different AA-T degrees, one with the courses chosen more to prepare a student to study literature and the other to study creative writing? Alternatively, we could create one AA-T with more total course choices and rely on the counselors to guide students to select the most appropriate courses from amongst all the options?

Thanks for any insight you can offer!

Carolyn

If the CSU has indicated that a given TMC will "work" (i.e. it is similar for a given major with a given emphasis, as you have indicated), the student will be able to finish in 60 at the CSU regardless of your TMC-aligned degree choices. But of course you want to direct students to take the courses that are most aligned with their preferred CSU destination. With that in mind, it makes sense to include the options for both the CSUs you feed to in your degree and to rely on counselors to guide students to the best course selections. The whole idea here is to have one degree that serves all CSUs well - having two degrees adds complexity that really is not warranted. I have a feeling you were leaning that way. ;-)

I have a C-ID course proposal that was denied asking for more information.  Is there a C-ID list available so that I can see what other community colleges have had their courses approved for specific C-ID numbers?  If yes, where please.

Example:  I want to know what community colleges have been approved for C-ID SOCI-150, Introduction to Race and Ethnicity, so that I can check on ASSIST to see if there are some current course outlines of record (CORs) for my faculty to use in upgrading our course to get approved for the C-ID number.

 

Thanks!

Carol E. Lee

The system chancellor for CSU states that eight of the campuses will allow spring 2013 enrollments for transfer students who have completed TMC degrees.  The rest are closing spring 2013 enrollment.  Does anyone know what the CSU plans for fall 2013?  Is there a move on their part to limit fall 2013 and spring 2014 transfer enrollments to students who have completed the TMC degrees?

Is there any flexibility in the Math for Teachers class in the Elementary Education degree? We have such a course but hasn't been offered much in recent years. The science classes for teachers all have alternative options among the more standard GE offerings, but it doesn't look like we're being given an option for the math. Since the math for teachers class is one that we don't offer very often, it's likely to become the main limiting factor in getting students through this degree.

If options are not indicated, they are not permitted. This is the sort of feedback that was needed during the vetting process to shape the final TMC.

IF the SJSU CS department has determined that the math TMC is "similar", that the math TMC maps onto the SJSU CS major, sure. Note that we now have a CS TMC.

At our college, the VP of Instruction has begun putting significant pressure on the Curriculum Committee to only approve courses that are part of TMC-aligned degrees.  She is also started a push to eliminate non-TMC-aligned degrees.  She has indicated this as being part of coversations taking place at CCC CIO meetings.   Is this the ultimate purpose of TMC's? 

If not, can you guide me to resources that state that it isn't?

 

That is not the intent and you will not find resources that state that explicitly as that is asking for statements regarding what something is NOT intended to do - sort of backwards.

Are there plans to develop a TMC for Biology? Our campus would like to offer an AS-T Degree.

The TMC for our Math degee was approved with a Math 228 or Math H228 (Honors) option. We have not offered the H228 in awhile and when we do, the enrollment is low. We would like to make the H228 course inactive.  How would this effect the degree? Do we have to notify the Chancellor's office? resubmit the degree for approval?  

That sounds like a non-substantive change. If you see the PCAH, the directions suggest that you would submit the CCC-511. Here's an excerpt:

CCC-511: Credit Program Nonsubstantial Change
This proposal is completed online via the CCC Curriculum Inventory. All attachments, including a scanned copy of the original signature page, will need to be attached to the proposal. The CCC Curriculum Inventory is accessible online at http://curriculum.cccco.edu to authorized users.
Refer to the CCC Curriculum Inventory User Guide for specific instructions on using the CCC Curriculum Inventory. Help icons are available on the electronic form to provide instructions for each field of the form.
When to use this form: The CCC-511 Credit Program Nonsubstantial Change form is used to submit minor changes to include a change in program status and to delete programs from the CCC Curriculum Inventory that are no longer offered at the college.
If the Chancellor’s Office believes the requested change must have been submitted as a new or substantially modified program, it may request additional information from the college before making an approval decision.